|Posted on Mon Sep 12, 2005 01:28:49|| |
|Lines 5-7 are confusing. Can anyone help to explain the grammar in order to arrive at the many translations I have seen? Thanks. M|
|Posted at Thu Dec 08, 2005 13:13:54|| Quote|
|In Catullus 2, "deliciae" -- what case is that? I see it is translated as a vocative, but...|
|Posted at Wed Dec 14, 2005 16:41:50|| Quote|
|Garrison's note (Student's Catullus Third Edition) says that "passer" is vocative and "deliciae" is poetic plural... so "deliciae" is likely vocative plural as well. |
|Posted at Fri Sep 01, 2006 15:56:41|| Quote|
|Deliciae is 1st declension, vocative plural - meae pullae is 1st declension genitive singular: "Darling of my girl".|
|Posted at Thu Sep 28, 2006 23:59:29|| Quote|
|Deliciae referring back to passer seems a tad strangely English... I would think deliciae would go to puellae, thus making it "The sparrow of my beloved girl".|
|Posted at Thu Dec 07, 2006 22:19:59|| Quote|
|Could it be that 'deliciae' is simply the nominative, with 'meae puellae' being the dative of possesive, or genitive? There's really no change in the translation if "meae puellae" is taken to be either: "Sparrow, the delight to my girl" or "Sparrow, my girl's delight."|
|Posted at Fri Dec 08, 2006 00:50:17|| Quote|
|decliciae is indeed vocative plural - Catullus is very fond of using the poetic plural where it fits the meter.|
|Posted at Thu Oct 23, 2008 06:05:27|| Quote|
|I think its poetic plural. You can think of "deliciae" as referring to the delights that the "passer" gives Lesbia. |
|Posted at Mon Oct 27, 2008 20:11:04|| Quote|
|Re: Reply to the previous message|
The Ă˘â‚¬Âťnormal sequenceĂ˘â‚¬Âť of the words in Carmen 2 would be as follows:
Passer deliciae meae puellae, quicum ludere, quem in sinu tenere, cui primum digitum dare et acris solet incitare morsus, cum desiderio meo, (nescio, quid lubet appetenti carum et nitenti solaciolum sui doloris iocari), credo ut tum gravis acquiescat ardor: tecum ludere possem sicut ipsa et levare curas tristis animi!
The word deliciae is in the genitive case (singular). The word puellae is also in the genitive case (singular).
These words mean Ă˘â‚¬Ĺ“sparrow of my delicious girlĂ˘â‚¬Âť and nothing else.
I see that it is difficult to Englishmen to understand Latin texts, because you are not accustomed to cases. I think that it might be advisable to study the Russian language if you really want to understand Latin texts. The use of the genitive, dative and other cases in the Russian language is similar to that in the Latin language. The Russian poetry resembles the Latin poetry in some respects. Yet it is easier to learn a modern language.
The logic of the Latin language is similar to that of the Russian language in many respects.
The logic of the English language is quite different.
Olga (Moscow, Russia)
|Posted at Wed Jan 07, 2009 06:26:10|| Quote|
|I think you are mistaken Olga. Deliciae does not agree with puellae, although technically it could. If you have Garrison's text he notes that Catullus uses the world deliciae in the plural 5 times with the meaning of pet or darling. Grammatically it is in apposition of passer, making it nominative plural with a singular meaning. |
Also in your rearranging of the word order you have placed a comma after nescio, separating it from quid. The phrase (sometimes written as one word) "nescio quid" is an idiom that can just be translated as "something."
|Posted at Thu Jan 08, 2009 00:16:14|| Quote|
|Actually Passer and deliciae are vocatives, since they aren't the subject any verb.|
|Posted at Wed Apr 15, 2009 14:42:55|| Quote|
|sparrow delight of my girlfriend delicae is genitive|
|Posted at Sat May 16, 2009 05:06:12|| Quote|
|In every text I have read of Carmen 2, the editor places a comma after passer, indicating that deliciae is in apposition to passer. This line could be slightly ambiguous, but I think it is apparent to experienced Latinists that it is best translated "Sparrow, the delights of my girl."|