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Main  ::  Translations - all  ::  Carmen 2  ::  Catullus 2 - help! (Carmen 2)Subscribe  •  Add new message

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AuthorMessage
msuk
Posted on Mon Sep 12, 2005 01:28:49  Quote
Lines 5-7 are confusing. Can anyone help to explain the grammar in order to arrive at the many translations I have seen? Thanks. M
Guest
Posted at Thu Dec 08, 2005 13:13:54  Quote
In Catullus 2, "deliciae" -- what case is that? I see it is translated as a vocative, but...
Guest
Posted at Wed Dec 14, 2005 16:41:50  Quote
Garrison's note (Student's Catullus Third Edition) says that "passer" is vocative and "deliciae" is poetic plural... so "deliciae" is likely vocative plural as well.
Guest
Posted at Fri Sep 01, 2006 15:56:41  Quote
Deliciae is 1st declension, vocative plural - meae pullae is 1st declension genitive singular: "Darling of my girl".
Guest
Posted at Thu Sep 28, 2006 23:59:29  Quote
Deliciae referring back to passer seems a tad strangely English... I would think deliciae would go to puellae, thus making it "The sparrow of my beloved girl".
Guest
Posted at Thu Dec 07, 2006 22:19:59  Quote
Could it be that 'deliciae' is simply the nominative, with 'meae puellae' being the dative of possesive, or genitive? There's really no change in the translation if "meae puellae" is taken to be either: "Sparrow, the delight to my girl" or "Sparrow, my girl's delight."
Chris Weimer
Posted at Fri Dec 08, 2006 00:50:17  Quote
decliciae is indeed vocative plural - Catullus is very fond of using the poetic plural where it fits the meter.
Guest
Posted at Thu Oct 23, 2008 06:05:27  Quote
I think its poetic plural. You can think of "deliciae" as referring to the delights that the "passer" gives Lesbia.
Guest
Posted at Mon Oct 27, 2008 20:11:04  Quote
Re: Reply to the previous message

The ā€normal sequenceā€ of the words in Carmen 2 would be as follows:

Passer deliciae meae puellae, quicum ludere, quem in sinu tenere, cui primum digitum dare et acris solet incitare morsus, cum desiderio meo, (nescio, quid lubet appetenti carum et nitenti solaciolum sui doloris iocari), credo ut tum gravis acquiescat ardor: tecum ludere possem sicut ipsa et levare curas tristis animi!

The word deliciae is in the genitive case (singular). The word puellae is also in the genitive case (singular).

These words mean ā€œsparrow of my delicious girlā€ and nothing else.

I see that it is difficult to Englishmen to understand Latin texts, because you are not accustomed to cases. I think that it might be advisable to study the Russian language if you really want to understand Latin texts. The use of the genitive, dative and other cases in the Russian language is similar to that in the Latin language. The Russian poetry resembles the Latin poetry in some respects. Yet it is easier to learn a modern language.

The logic of the Latin language is similar to that of the Russian language in many respects.

The logic of the English language is quite different.

Yours sincerely
Olga (Moscow, Russia)
Guest
Posted at Wed Jan 07, 2009 06:26:10  Quote
I think you are mistaken Olga. Deliciae does not agree with puellae, although technically it could. If you have Garrison's text he notes that Catullus uses the world deliciae in the plural 5 times with the meaning of pet or darling. Grammatically it is in apposition of passer, making it nominative plural with a singular meaning.

Also in your rearranging of the word order you have placed a comma after nescio, separating it from quid. The phrase (sometimes written as one word) "nescio quid" is an idiom that can just be translated as "something."
Guest
Posted at Thu Jan 08, 2009 00:16:14  Quote
Actually Passer and deliciae are vocatives, since they aren't the subject any verb.
Guest
Posted at Wed Apr 15, 2009 14:42:55  Quote
sparrow delight of my girlfriend delicae is genitive
Guest
Posted at Sat May 16, 2009 05:06:12  Quote
In every text I have read of Carmen 2, the editor places a comma after passer, indicating that deliciae is in apposition to passer. This line could be slightly ambiguous, but I think it is apparent to experienced Latinists that it is best translated "Sparrow, the delights of my girl."
 


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